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GOURANGA! Forums > General > GTA Discussion > Top Down City dev log
Post 121 | New
Cerbera
Ben 'Cerbera' Millard

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The kerb stones look pretty huge, imho. They are like the width of the player's body...should probably be more like the width of the player's foot.

If a cube is still the length of a car, that means a 1 cube high wall is 4-5 metres tall. That means a normal, 2 level house would only be 1 cube high (plus the roof). Some of the GTA1 textures have two levels per cube; I think the Chinatown buildings in sanb were like like this. That seemed to work quite well.

Maybe for offices you'd have 1.5 levels per cube. You'd always use at least 2 cubes for these. The top half of a 3 cube office could use a decorative pattern beneath the roof, like the government buildings in GTA1 often had. Or, always use an even number of cubes.

Should probably have 2 windows per cube width for houses. Again, maybe have 1.5 windows per cube width for larger buildings and I guess shop windows might be a whole cube wide.

In GTA1, the houses are bloody huge and the offices are relatively small. Normal sizes houses would be about 1 cube wide for a terrace, maybe 2 cubes wide for semi-detached or small detached house. Quite rich detached houses maybe 3 cubes wide, etc. Compare the size of cars to the sizes of different buildings in GTASA perhaps?

Oh, each road lane should stay about 1 cube wide. For main roads, maybe make it 3 lanes wide with the center line in the middle of the middle cubes. This means moving the word-down areas of the textures towards middle a little bit. Not sure if your engine can make cars run offset from center of cubes but these wider roads could be a nice effect.

I think the player is perhaps slightly too big for the car. In GTA2, people were MASSIVE compared to cars. I guess everyone will be really muscular in 3 weeks time. tongue

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Post 122 | New
Delfi
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Cerbera wrote:
The kerb stones look pretty huge, imho. They are like the width of the player's body...should probably be more like the width of the player's foot.

If a cube is still the length of a car, that means a 1 cube high wall is 4-5 metres tall. That means a normal, 2 level house would only be 1 cube high (plus the roof). Some of the GTA1 textures have two levels per cube; I think the Chinatown buildings in sanb were like like this. That seemed to work quite well.

Maybe for offices you'd have 1.5 levels per cube. You'd always use at least 2 cubes for these. The top half of a 3 cube office could use a decorative pattern beneath the roof, like the government buildings in GTA1 often had. Or, always use an even number of cubes.

Should probably have 2 windows per cube width for houses. Again, maybe have 1.5 windows per cube width for larger buildings and I guess shop windows might be a whole cube wide.

In GTA1, the houses are bloody huge and the offices are relatively small. Normal sizes houses would be about 1 cube wide for a terrace, maybe 2 cubes wide for semi-detached or small detached house. Quite rich detached houses maybe 3 cubes wide, etc. Compare the size of cars to the sizes of different buildings in GTASA perhaps?



i think i'll use it this way: change textures to be wider in width and smaller in height, i'll make a block instead 1*1*1 1*1*0.5, with this, i will make the maps 300*300*10 blocks big (projected uncompressed space = 12 bytes per each cube, and that gives 1.080.000 bytes per Z-slice of the map, 10 slices = 10.800.000, that is 10 megabytes for you). comparing this to gta2 maps (6mb) is quite reasonable, and because every file in tdc engine can use zip-like compression (zlib), so the files will stay very small when stored on disk (current small test map is 6.5 MB uncompressed, but is actually just 25Kb compressed).
 
Making cubes lower, and adding map bigger (more cubes, not scale) in height and width and depth will have to do, with this i can still build large buildings, and have bigger more immersive city.
 
See example, the textures are a little odd stretched vertically, but it works rather well imo.
http://users.volja.net/Delfi/tdcnewscale.jpg


Cerbera wrote:


Oh, each road lane should stay about 1 cube wide. For main roads, maybe make it 3 lanes wide with the center line in the middle of the middle cubes. This means moving the word-down areas of the textures towards middle a little bit. Not sure if your engine can make cars run offset from center of cubes but these wider roads could be a nice effect.

 
there is no limit on that, the car paths are completely vectorized, so you can make roundabouts if you have the guts ;) there are no cars driving on paths yet tho..

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Post 123 | New
Delfi
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http://www.gtatools.com/TDC/configtdc.jpg
 
And that, my friends is how we are going to set game video options.

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Post 124 | New
Lobster Martin
hi

  • Joined: Feb '03
Give us something to play with damn you.
Post 125 | New
Cerbera
Ben 'Cerbera' Millard

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The new cube scaling looks good. The kerb textures are way too big though, imho.

Can you stop cars from casting shadows up onto the sides of walls? I expect players will often be crashing things into walls, so getting this effect right would be noticable.

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Post 126 | New
Delfi
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Cerbera wrote:
The new cube scaling looks good. The kerb textures are way too big though, imho.

 
if i have to justify this, i'll call the map "The Big Kerb City" or something :/ you cant make kerbs smaller as it would look ugly (even if more realistic).
 
Cerbera wrote:
Can you stop cars from casting shadows up onto the sides of walls? I expect players will often be crashing things into walls, so getting this effect right would be noticable.

 
I thought in real world it is realistic that cars cast shadows on walls.. or was i wrong? :/
 
I am planning a new shadowing system (for buildings only), no changes for cars / peds. it should make almost perfect shadows like in doom3. Same effect and basic idea, but much cheaper, we'll see how it goes..

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Post 127 | New
Delfi
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OH NOES! EXPLOSIONS! BLAST WAVES! EXPLOSION JUMPING!
 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFtKPNuxW6s
 
Lol, just check out the TDC youtube explosion testing video:
 
Icey, add a youtube embedded video tag to forums :P
 
On a misc note, i've made a GGE profile if anyone is interested: www.greatgamesexperiment.com/user/JernejL

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Post 128 | New
Cerbera
Ben 'Cerbera' Millard

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Strange...I'd have thought a Slovene programmer would be too uptight to participate in a "sexperiment"!

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Post 129 | New
Delfi
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Cerbera wrote:
Strange...I'd have thought a Slovene programmer would be too uptight to participate in a "sexperiment"!

 
The website name is "the great games experiment" you tit!

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Post 130 | New
Delfi
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no real replies? meh you guys are some tough audience :P

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Post 131 | New
Will
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That looks fun - I take it there will be a god mode cheat so we can all rocket jump? :)

And erm, why did the tank die in one hit? That kindof invalidates its point.

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Post 132 | New
Delfi
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Will wrote:
That looks fun - I take it there will be a god mode cheat so we can all rocket jump? :)

And erm, why did the tank die in one hit? That kindof invalidates its point.

 
Because it's health wasn't set so he could survive a rocket :/ by default, cars have 1000 points health, and rocket takes about that much of them away. plus, it didn't have any anti-rocket armor.

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Post 133 | New
Icey
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Delfi wrote:
OH NOES! EXPLOSIONS! BLAST WAVES! EXPLOSION JUMPING!
 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFtKPNuxW6s

That's really cool. Are these beta's downloadable somewhere?

Delfi wrote:
Icey, add a youtube embedded video tag to forums :P

Done!



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Post 134 | New
Delfi
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Hehe, that youtube embedding is really neat :D these demos aren't going out yet for at least a month, basically i'm not releasing any more demo which uses the old car physics until i get the new car physics working, there are really a lot of other cool things i'm doing with tdc lately, so just wait for it (and try to make some hi-res cars or something :P )
 
Edit: i wonder if would anyone have anything against me implementing strafing in TDC.. you know, kinda in a FPS way (mouse aim + strafe etc.. ) basicly it sucks aiming in a gta1 classic way, and i believe this would add whole a lot to netplay.

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Post 135 | New
Sektor
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Nice shock wave and explosions.  I don't want to have to use a mouse to be competitive.  Keyboard FTW!

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Stealing cars is the easy part
Post 136 | New
Lobster Martin
hi

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Defli that's awesome, I would have commented but didn't see and have been busy.

I love your little TDC.

Strafing..possibility, although I still think aiming would be horrible.

I'm not sure if this what you meant by using the mouse...

I've played a number of top down games which use an interesting keyboard/mouse combination. I think for the on foot stuff it would be perfect.

Basically, you would have an aiming reticle, which you move around with the mouse, which determines which way your character points. You could still move north, south, east, and west with the normal buttons, but the character would keep aiming where you wanted him to. I know you've already implemented all this stuff and probably hate the idea of changing it, but I think it would be perfect. For multi, this would be neat..

How's the AI coming? I'm graduating from an AI degree this summer, maybe I could give you a hand or some help if you have problems with some stuff? It'd be cool to try and solve some AI problems for a game. Although you're a smart guy you've probably worked it out for yourself.

I'm thres h  btw.
Post 137 | New
Delfi
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Lobster Martin wrote:
Defli that's awesome, I would have commented but didn't see and have been busy.

I love your little TDC.

Strafing..possibility, although I still think aiming would be horrible.

I'm not sure if this what you meant by using the mouse...


Basicly, you'd aim / turn to any target with the mouse cursor, and use WASD combination of keys to walk, something like in that "soldat" game.
 
Lobster Martin wrote:

I've played a number of top down games which use an interesting keyboard/mouse combination. I think for the on foot stuff it would be perfect.

Basically, you would have an aiming reticle, which you move around with the mouse, which determines which way your character points. You could still move north, south, east, and west with the normal buttons, but the character would keep aiming where you wanted him to. I know you've already implemented all this stuff and probably hate the idea of changing it, but I think it would be perfect. For multi, this would be neat..

 
Not sure if i understand this right, but it sounds like the way i was imagining it, but that one could be able to walk in any direction and shoot into another? not sure if i got this right.
 
Lobster Martin wrote:

How's the AI coming? I'm graduating from an AI degree this summer, maybe I could give you a hand or some help if you have problems with some stuff? It'd be cool to try and solve some AI problems for a game. Although you're a smart guy you've probably worked it out for yourself.

 
The AI is pretty poor atm, pedesterians have some basic well-working logic, they wander around, avoid obstacles and roads, etc.. and panic when you shoot near them, that's pretty good pedesterian logic for me :D For bots / scripted characters there's a pretty basic AI, which just directs the character towards the target and fires at it when in close range, they don't retreat if a second target is shooting at them at all, there are some glitches too with some weapons, etc.. but since i'd rather focus to netplay i don't give that much detail to ai ( honestly, i suck at programming physics, and i suck even more at programming AI, but smart AI bots are always fun to have ).
 
I was thinking of exposing the AI to some sort of externally scriptable code (like in far cry), such as using LUA or PAWN or some other similar scripting, so if you'd like to help me with AI, i can implement LUA and you can try making some scripts, if you are interested, IM me, my msn address is in my profile.
 
I'm currently working on some nice graphics features (i'm better at coding graphics than anything else :D ) i'm adding shaders to the map textures (think displacement maps, water effects and possibly reflections ), i also got basic stencil shadows working in a sandbox app using shadow volumes (think doom3 precise real time shadows), i'll try to port them to the editor and then to the game itself, i'll let you know how it goes (ans post screenshots)

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Post 138 | New
Lobster Martin
hi

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Ah, that is exactly what I was thinking, just like Soldat.

I think that'll be a brilliant way to do it. The FPS style controls worked really well for the platform game style of Soldat, so there's no real reason they couldn't work well on a top down game. The only difference I can think of is that in Soldat you had to account for gravity and how bullets fell over time.

Soldat is quite a popular game, I think that's quite alot down to the physics. If TDC could have things like bouncing grenades, and nice simple controls like Soldat, it'd be really fun.

The graphics features sound cool, I'm quite interested in that sort of thing, although unfortunately my graphics knowledge consists of precisely squat.

Your pedestrian logic seems fine to me. Other than avoiding things, like roads, and running away from people with guns, I'm not sure what else you could do.

What about AI-driven vehicles... I suppose general city-goers would be quite simple (I assume road tiles would denote some sort of track?), are you planning on having lights at junctions and stuff?

Police might be a little trickier, do you have a plan for them? I suppose having working police would bring you one step closer to AI bots (who could drive cars around and find the player).

I'm just trying to get an idea for what you've done, it's an awesome project.

The scripting idea is interesting. I'd definitely like to try my hand at some AI, but it'd have to wait until after I graduate in July.
Post 139 | New
Delfi
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Lobster Martin wrote:
Ah, that is exactly what I was thinking, just like Soldat.

I think that'll be a brilliant way to do it. The FPS style controls worked really well for the platform game style of Soldat, so there's no real reason they couldn't work well on a top down game. The only difference I can think of is that in Soldat you had to account for gravity and how bullets fell over time.

Soldat is quite a popular game, I think that's quite alot down to the physics. If TDC could have things like bouncing grenades, and nice simple controls like Soldat, it'd be really fun.


I already got bouncing rubber bullets, grenades and molotovs ingame :)

Lobster Martin wrote:

The graphics features sound cool, I'm quite interested in that sort of thing, although unfortunately my graphics knowledge consists of precisely squat.

Your pedestrian logic seems fine to me. Other than avoiding things, like roads, and running away from people with guns, I'm not sure what else you could do.

What about AI-driven vehicles... I suppose general city-goers would be quite simple (I assume road tiles would denote some sort of track?), are you planning on having lights at junctions and stuff?

 
i implemented fully vectorized roads in the editor, but i haven't got the car physics / handling done yet properly, so i'm not making driving AI until i sort this out.
 
Lobster Martin wrote:

Police might be a little trickier, do you have a plan for them? I suppose having working police would bring you one step closer to AI bots (who could drive cars around and find the player).

 
Yeah i guess police would be interesting for a online game like this, but it'd have to be done properly.
 
Lobster Martin wrote:

I'm just trying to get an idea for what you've done, it's an awesome project.

The scripting idea is interesting. I'd definitely like to try my hand at some AI, but it'd have to wait until after I graduate in July.

 
Okay, i'll check out lua and ways i can implement it.

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Post 140 | New
Delfi
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Real time shadow volumes, this is just drawing the volumes at the moment (in map editor), which are pitch black, ofcourse i'll have controls to manipulate the shadow intensity and shadows/lightning direction itself later, but this is just a test of half the shadowing functionality i'm working on.

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